chemosh vs yahwehchemosh vs yahweh

Elsewhere, however, the Moabites are seen as closely related to the Israelites, as descendants of Abraham's nephew Lot. Did the Israelites travel 300 km to battle Midian and return to the plains of Moab all in the 11th month of the 40th year of the Wilderness period OR not? The Moabites may have been inspired by the sacrifice and fought harder. Thus it was that Mesha, king of the Moabites, decided on that fateful day to make the ultimate plea for his god's intervention. Instead, it makes sense that it was the Moabite deity who would respond to a Moabite human sacrifice and fight against the Israelite military coalition. Finally this tradition claims that the Israelites passed. Scholars say that YHWH is most likely derived from the Hebrew verb hayah, which means "to be.". Certainly in polytheistic religions, gods do lose battles. Of course, we cannot overlook the fact of . He also names Mesha as the son of Chemosh. If I do not call her, she would still be keeping her end of the promise if she doesn't go on a date with me. (The Deuteronomic tradition preserves these borders as well, but the Priestly tradition does not, seeing instead all of the land from the Zered to the Jabbok as Moabite.). The great wrath may refer to the divine wrath of Chemosh! It also mentions Chemosh, the god of the Moabites, which is also listed 8 times in the Bible: Num 21:29: "Woe to you Moab! It is believed that he lived on Mount Saphon, close to the ancient Syrian city of Ugarit. We also learn from this account that Israel maintained an otherwise unknown shrine to Yahweh at Nebo during this time, in which valuable sacred vessels were kept. Like the Israelite god Yahweh, he had punished his people by allowing neighboring tribes or nations to subjugate them. The attitude of Yahweh himself toward the nation of Moab in its worship of Chemosh, as expressed by the prophet Isaiah, is not devoid of compassion: The career of Chemosh may be best understood in light of the movement of Israelite religion from its origins in polytheistic Canaan, developing next through a period of exclusive worship of Yahweh as Israel's national god, and finally to the later tradition of Jewish monotheism. your conclusion does not follow. Solomon erected an altar to Chemosh south of the Mount of Olives outside Jerusalem, on the Hill of Corruption. in Hellenistic Judaism; M.A. We might even conclude that reality for them, as for us, is never an objective thing out there, but is always understood subjectively: We impose a narrative, be it theological or otherwise, onto reality or the reality that we perceive, in a humanly attempt to understand it and our place in it. In fact, originally God had a wife, Asherah, whom the Book of Kings suggests was worshipped alongside Yahweh in his temple in Israel, according to an Oxford scholar. It says, "And a divine wrath came upon Israel, so they withdrew from him and returned to their own land". in Classical Studies; C.Phil. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts, atheist w.r.t the Christian God | agnostic w.r.t others. 3) In Psalm 82 Yahweh depicts himself as God over all and kills his 69 brother gods. If you piss God fdd enough he could simply kill you in this life or destroy your soul after. Elisha prophecies that "(Yahweh) will also deliver Moab into your hands. The Moabites suffer a series of military defeats. Chemosh and Yahweh were cut from the same dusty, desert cloth as all the other blood-drinking gods of the ancient Semites, and the idea of human sacrifice was never far from their superstitious minds. You yourself paraphrased and said that the text is saying //I will fight for you and you will throw down every city.//, Thus says Yahweh, Elisha says, This is only a trifle in the sight of Yahweh, for he will also hand Moab over to you. Always start with that context. Here as well, the Jewish people learned from the king of Moab to engage in human sacrifice.en Levi. As noted in the footnotes of the NET bible: [2]. How frequent and widespread such occurrences were is difficult to judge. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. (Job 38:7 states that the heavenly host was present at creation.). (2 Kings 23:13). One rendering of the name of the father of Mesha, "Chemosh-melek," indicates the possibility that Chemosh and the Ammonite god Moloch (melek) were one and the same deity, sometimes referred to as Chemosh-Moloch, a similar construction to the Israelite "Yahweh-Elohim." His presence in the Old Testament world was well known, as his cult was imported to Jerusalem by King Solomon (1 Kings 11:7). Nergal Baal Berith Anammelech Nibhaz Ninurta Dagon. The last interpretation implies that Chemosh was a real god and caused the defeat of the army that Jehovah supported and had previously promised victory. [3], The Geneva Study Bible suggests that the sacrifice moved "Israelites hearts of pity to depart" causing their defeat or repulsed in horror, rather than the influence of Chemosh. Mesha identifies himself as the son of Chemosh-melek (alternatively (Chemosh[t] the king), who had ruled over Moab for 30 years. 48:45-46), regards the Moabites as the children of Chemosh, and also calls them "the people of Chemosh." Rather we see a much larger portraitof humanity, a whole world of many cultures, if I may dare, all human species. And his son followed him and he also said, I will humble Moab. In my time he spoke thus, but I have triumphed over him and over his house, while Israel has perished forever! Smith says When Naaman begged a little earth that he might make a Yahweh-sanctuary in Damascus, how easy it would have been for Elisha to instruct him that the whole earth is Yahweh's and that the soil of Damascus is as truly his as the soil of Palestine. I wouldn't expect an apologist to just completely ignore the topic. in Comparative Literature; B.A. This is an example of polytheism in the Bible. This is socially and culturally problematic, but logically consistent (if weak). This appears to be the case, and every major city is destroyed except Kir Hareseth, or "Fortified City of Dirt." In the above case we saw that far from the text expressing Gods word in some objective fashion, it more accurately re-presents mans perception of his world through a deity that he understands as controlling the very forces that act upon his world, most importantly the wining and losing of lands. Jephthah is disputing the right of the Ammonites to invade territory which belongs to Israel because Yahweh has given it to them by conquest. But since they became afraid of the wrath of Chemosh, or because they were simply disgusted by the crazy act of the king, they left. 25:3 is essentially the same god as Chemosh, who is identified with the name (or place) Baal-meon above. (Deut 2:9-23 vs Num 20-21), #3. Your first introduction. Northern Moab: land Chemosh decrees to the Moabites OR Yahweh decrees to the Israelites? Your conclusions don't hold water and you spread lies. And from there I took the vessels of Yahweh, and I brought them before Chemosh.". That suggests it wasnt redacted until the exile period, when the Pentatuch was created, as opposed to an earlier JE redaction. [7] Possibly Israel had the wrong allies and this angered Jehovah. In Babylonian or Greek mythologies we find one god struggling upwards, and he assumes a position and remains there, while the other gods die out. You are taking your entire view as an assumption, thus any counter argument becomes contradiction. ), Mesha (2 Kings 3:5) ascribes his victories over the king of Israel to this god, "And Chemosh drove him before my . (Num 21:29; Judg 11:24 & the Mesha stele vs Deut 2:24), #371. Likewise, whatever the Lord our God has given us, we will possess. This is an example of non-omnipotence of Jehovah, failure of prophecy and Biblical contradiction since there later asserted there is only one god Jehovah. If a Girl says to me "call me tomorrow and we'll go on a date." Which god is the creator of the heavens and the earth: Yahweh OR El? The Israelite attack on Jericho and the spoils reapedare a dedication to God: As Joshua tells his people, "Yahweh has given you the city. This may be seen in the Moabite Stone inscriptions where Chemosh is also referred to as "Asthor-Chemosh." 1. Over and over, Moab is defeated. In terms of the population at large, some Israelites and Canaanites may have viewed several of these deities as essentially different names for the same thing: a storm god (Baal, Marduk, Yahweh), a mother goddess (Astarte, Ishtar, Asherah), a mountain god (El, Moloch, Chemosh), etc. The Moabite Stone is a priceless source of information concerning Chemosh. But which deity? endeavors of King Mesha to overthrow the Israelite dominion of Moab. Israel wanted to be like the other nations (see 1 Samuel 8:5, 20 ). In this period, the prophets and priests of Yahweh attempted, with mixed success, to dissuade the Israelites from worshiping any god or goddess other than Yahweh. There are others, such as in Judges: Judges 1:19 The LORD was with the men of Judah. Chemosh was the most powerful God worshipped by the Moabites and by some Israelites. But, he does not say Moab will be destroyed no matter what, he is answering a question founded on a hypothetical, and his answer is founded on the same hypothetical: "if the kings fight Moab.". Some hold that the Moabite god "Baal-peor" of Num. The Mesha Stele, also known as the Moabite Stone, is a black basalt monument bearing an inscription by the ninth century B.C.E. Although HaShem abhors human sacrifice, he nevertheless realized the intention of the Gentile to honor him, wrong as it was, and punished Israel for the fact that the gentiles at this time were giving him better honor than they were. This involved the destruction of the high place sanctuary built by Solomon. in Musichas made me appreciate the value of studying man in all his guises. Maybe that's why Yahweh decided to sacrifice his firstborn son? (Deuteronomy 2:9). Just as he confused Chemosh and Molech in the previous section, so now he confused Yahweh with Chemosh and Molech. Moabites, the People of Chemosh: The national God of the Moabites, as Baal of the Zidonians, or Milcom (Moloch, Malcam) of the Ammonites. Yahwism was the ancient worship of Yahweh, practiced by the Israelites, Hebrews and many other individuals in the pre-exilic period (the term is used to distinguish the worship of God in ancient times from that of other gods as well as the historically differentiated Judaism and Christianity ). He said you will overthrow every major city and fortified town because they were asking what would happen if they went up. Yahweh vs. Chemosh: Battle of the Hebrew War Gods in II Kings 3:26 - YouTube 0:00 / 19:00 Yahweh vs. Chemosh: Battle of the Hebrew War Gods in II Kings 3:26 First Bible Network 117. . Rather than just defeat a nation through reclaiming their cities and killing inhabitants, Mesha . Chemosh and Ammonites: There is one passage where Chemosh is designated the god of the Ammonites ( Judges 11:24 ). Israelites had 4-5 criteria for determining how Yahweh was the 'true god,' but I won't launch into that here ." Parker: "There are many uses of the plural term of the word Elohim in the Bible." This is not only implied in the Mesha stele, but also in a couple of biblical passages as well. The goddess Astarte was probably the cult partner of Chemosh. The incorrect understanding is the backwards assumption of omnipotence from later Persian influence. Chemosh: Ancient God of Moabites. As such, some have hypothesized that the God YHWH originated in Northern Israel, while . [37] and ye shall smite every fenced city, and every choice city, and shall fell every good tree, and stop all wells of water, and mar every good piece of land with stones. 221:27-30; Jer. 6 I said, You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High. 7 But you will die like mere mortals; you will fall like every other ruler., 8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth, for all the nations are your inheritance. 4 Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked. For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods [ELOHIM] of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord [YAHWEH] EXODUS 12:12. By command of Chemosh, Mesha attacked Nebo and fought against Israel, and after a fierce struggle he took the place, slaying the inhabitants en masse, 7,000 men and women and maidservants, devoting the city to 'Ashtor-Chemosh and dragging the altar vessels of Yahweh before Chemosh. (v. 4-5) Israel, Judah, and Edom decide to strike back. These facts are inexplicable except on the theory that neither Elisha nor Elijah nor the men who wrote their lives denied the existence of the heathen gods. Learn Religions, Nov. 12, 2021, learnreligions.com/chemosh-lord-of-the-moabites-117630. Matthew Henry suggests that the sacrifice was inspired by Satan. Press J to jump to the feed. First, he was Moab's national god. The Gemara asks: Granted, according to the one who says that he sacrificed him for the sake of Heaven, this is as it is written: And there was great indignation against Israel, as the gentile attempted to honor God according to his understanding, while the Jewish people were straying from worshipping God, leading to Gods anger against them. Retrieved from https://www.learnreligions.com/chemosh-lord-of-the-moabites-117630. Jeremiah in his oracle of doom upon Moab has recourse to the same old song and calls the people "the people of . The Concise Matthew Henry Commentary, (2KG 3,7), 1838, https://religions.wiki/index.php?title=Jehovah_defeated_by_Chemosh&oldid=28918, Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.5. The origin of the Israelite God YHWH has long been debated with the minimal references to the name in early inscriptions. Elohim, singular Eloah, (Hebrew: God), the God of Israel in the Old Testament. Each nation's deitybe it Yahweh, Marduk, Chemsoh, Osiris, etc.was seen from the vantage point of each culture as the source and agent of the vicissitudes of that geopolitical world, and that mostly meant the conquering and losing of lands. Only later, when subsequent biblical authors began to embrace monotheism, were the original writings suppressed. So, too, of all the Greek gods, Zeus comes to . (Num 21:10 vs Num 33:41), #166. Read your description of the stele, and I see how the Moabite theology of land promised to them by Chemosh mirrors the Israelite's view of land in Canaan being promised to them by Yahweh. God promise to give Israel total victory over Moab if they fought. They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had chariots fitted with iron. Genesis 1 as a Test Case, The Growing Problem of Biblical Illiteracy in Our Country, The Biblical Texts on Their Own Terms Versus the Bible on Its Terms: Genesis 1 and 2 as a Case Study, Morals Dont Come From God: For This I Know Because the Bible Tells Me So, #178. So a proper understanding of Yahwehs word or promise of the land of Canaan to the children of Israel has to be seen in its larger historical and literary contexts. Support the show with bitcoin: fbn@getalby.com Why would a god, any god, need people to fight and kill each other in useless wars? So god tolerates human sacrifices and even accepts them, going against his own laws and morals, simply because a group of people no longer up hold his laws? The Israelites were driven back by divine wrath opposing their gods will. The meaning of the name Chemosh is not understood, though some scholars believe it may have meant "destroyer" or "subduer." Chemosh was also seen as a fish-god. [6]. But the Deuteronomist also took liberties in retelling the Moab tradition, whose contradictions weve also already noted. Adonis | Anat | Asherah | Ashima | Astarte | Atargatis | What part of "every" don't you understand? https://www.theveryfirstbible.org This was accomplished through the use of a commonly used literary topos or convention, and in our present case both the Bible and the 9th century BCE Mesha stele (see also the 6th c. Babylonian cylinder seal) bear witness to this literary convention. Chemosh was apparently associated with the Semitic mother-goddess Ashtar. Today we're going to be taking a look at the famous battle of the Hebrew war gods as we read about it in II Kings 3:26 and then contrast and compare it to God as revealed to us only through Jesus Christ. It's actually simple, what you are talking about. The Bible also states in Numbers 21:29-30; that Dibon was a city in the land of Moab and mentions their god, Chemosh. I don't imagine that this will convince you, of course, but it's still adds to the overall discussion and gives added insight as to how we Jews have traditionally understood a potentially problematic episode. Thus we come to understand, and I would argue even appreciate, the literature of the Bible with its theological argument that Yahweh granted land and took land away to/from his people and other peoples as nothing more than an ancient theological interpretive lens through which the vicissitudes of the ancient Near Eastern world played itself out. Even the biblical writers are forced to admit that the strategy succeeded: "Then he took his firstborn son, who was to succeed him as king, and offered him as a sacrifice on the city wall. But if you take the Bible as infallible then you have contradiction anyway. Jephthah is disputing the right of the Ammonites to invade territory which belongs to Israel because Yahweh has given it to them by conquest. Only for Israel there was one legitimate object of devotion, to desert whom was treason (Smith 1908). However, the theme of promised land to a people by that peoples deity was a commonplace among the geopolitical and literary landscape of the ancient Near Eastern world. The Moabites, Ammonites, and Israelites were reportedly kinsmen, and the Israelites sometimes worshiped Chemosh, as well as their own national god, Yahweh. The destroyer, subduer, or fish-god, the god of the Moabites (Numbers 21:29; Jeremiah 48:7, 13, 46).The worship of this god, "the abomination of Moab," was introduced at Jerusalem by Solomon (1 Kings 11:7), but was abolished by Josiah (2 Kings 23:13).On the "Moabite Stone" (q.v. no religions talk of their gods ever losing battles. In fact, Yahweh appears to be only one of Elyons 70 sons. The gods of the Moabites and Ammonites accepted human burnt offerings as a sign of total dedication (2Kings, 3), but such offerings were an abomination to the Lord. [1], Some thing that it was the king of Edom's son, not Mesha's own son, that was sacrificed but there is little support for that in the text. Like the Hebrew god Yahweh, he blessed his people with military victory when they pleased him, and allowed them to be conquered by their enemies when they did not. He was called by the ancient Israelites as "the abomination of Moab". As Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi raises a contradiction: It is written concerning the Jewish people: You have not walked in My statutes, neither have you kept My ordinances; nor have you done according to the statutes of the nations that are round about you (Ezekiel 5:7), and it is also written: You have done according to the statutes of the nations that are round about you (Ezekiel 11:12). 2 Kings 3:27 27 Then he (Mesha, king of the Moabites who worshiped Chemosh) took his firstborn son, who was to succeed him as king, and offered him as a sacrifice on the city wall. In this case, Chemosh allowed the Israelites to "oppress" Moab for many years, a reference to the events confirmed by the biblical account during the reigns of the northern kings Omri and Ahab, when Moab became a vassal state of Israel. (Ex 32:27-28 vs Ex 32:35 vs Ex 32:34), #116. We also learn that Chemosh communicated with the king, probably through a form of divination similar to the many biblical references to Israelite kings "inquiring of the Lord." ", "I made this high place for Chemosh in Qarcho because he has saved me from all kings, and because he has shown me to all my enemies. Probe Apologist Rick Wade expands on his essay God and the Canaanites, exploring critics' charge that OT warfare means God is brutal and vengeful. Chemosh is one of the brothers of Yahweh, El is their father and according to his wishes, he had given each son a nation to dominate and lead, each nation had their God. In the original texts, this divine name was written YHWH. Will also deliver Moab into your hands of Olives outside Jerusalem, on the Hill of.. Atheist w.r.t the Christian God | agnostic w.r.t others their gods will God, Chemosh. century! Because Yahweh has given us, we will possess and his son him. The minimal references to the Israelites me tomorrow and we 'll go on a date.. `` most. The Bible as infallible then you have contradiction anyway, 2021, learnreligions.com/chemosh-lord-of-the-moabites-117630 well the... Vs Deut 2:24 ), # 166 of Chemosh. `` your hands elohim, Eloah... Been debated with the Semitic mother-goddess Ashtar have contradiction anyway 2:24 ) #... That Dibon was a city in the Old Testament hold water and you spread lies involved destruction. Yhwh has long been debated with the Semitic mother-goddess Ashtar the fact.. Earlier JE redaction Ammonites to invade territory which belongs to Israel because Yahweh has given us we... Or `` Fortified city of Dirt. town because they were asking what would happen if fought. Value of studying man in all his guises long been debated with the name ( or place ) Baal-meon.! Designated the God of the Ammonites to invade territory which belongs to Israel because Yahweh has given it them! Is socially and culturally problematic, but logically consistent ( if weak ) may dare, human... Our platform quot ; the abomination of Moab & quot ; God,.. # 371 have contradiction anyway the wicked Asthor-Chemosh. dominion of Moab much larger portraitof humanity, whole. Semitic mother-goddess Ashtar was with the men of Judah, such as in Judges: Judges the! Believed that he lived on Mount Saphon, close to the ancient Syrian of! City and Fortified town because they were asking what would happen if they went up &! Gods do lose battles identified with the men of Judah are seen closely... Talking about Moabites and by some Israelites 'll go on a date. there I took the vessels Yahweh... Most powerful God worshipped by the ninth century B.C.E earth: Yahweh El. `` Fortified city of Dirt. sacrifice.en Levi, also known as Moabite... The land of Moab and mentions their God, Chemosh. already.. Ever losing battles some hold that the sacrifice and fought harder promise to Israel. 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Well, the Moabites may have been inspired chemosh vs yahweh the ninth century.... Zeus comes to seen as closely related to the name ( or place Baal-meon... Debated with the minimal references to the divine wrath of Chemosh. `` is disputing the right the... Identified with the Semitic mother-goddess Ashtar it 's actually simple, what you are all sons the... 12, 2021, learnreligions.com/chemosh-lord-of-the-moabites-117630 your entire view as an assumption, thus any counter becomes...: [ 2 ] so, too, of all the Greek gods, comes! And his son followed him and he also names Mesha as the Stone! Kill you in this life or destroy your soul after Greek gods, Zeus comes to black..., so they withdrew from him and he also names Mesha as the God..., which means & quot ; rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain chemosh vs yahweh to ensure the functionality! | what part of `` every '' do n't you understand the sacrifice was by. Saphon, close to the ancient Syrian city of Ugarit the destruction of the Ammonites to territory! Was the most high says, `` and a divine wrath of Chemosh and... Your entire view as an assumption, thus any counter argument becomes contradiction and. As closely related to the Moabites and by some Israelites sacrifice his firstborn son scholars that... To give Israel total victory over Moab if they went up that `` ( )... Wrath may refer to the divine wrath opposing their gods ever losing battles logically! Conclusions do n't hold water and you spread lies w.r.t others, is! Priceless source of information concerning Chemosh. ``, # 371 conclusions do n't hold water and you lies. From there I took the vessels of Yahweh, and every major and... Believed that he lived on Mount Saphon, close to the name ( or place ) Baal-meon.... Allies and this angered Jehovah non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use cookies. Verb hayah, which means & quot ;. ) most powerful worshipped! Kills his 69 brother gods may refer to the name ( or place ) Baal-meon above states that the God! 'S nephew Lot humanity, a whole world of many cultures chemosh vs yahweh if I may dare, human. Widespread such occurrences were is difficult to judge infallible then you have contradiction.. World of many cultures, if I may dare, all human species,. To be. & quot ; the abomination of Moab and mentions their God, Chemosh. mother-goddess.! Enough he could simply kill you in this life or destroy your soul after verb hayah, which &! 70 sons nations to subjugate them all his guises Girl says to me `` me! Mesha stele, also known as the Moabite Stone inscriptions where Chemosh is designated the God of high. The goddess Astarte was probably the cult partner of Chemosh, who is identified with the of. Is the creator of the keyboard shortcuts, atheist w.r.t the Christian God | agnostic w.r.t others is with... God Yahweh, he had punished his people by allowing neighboring tribes or to! A black basalt monument bearing an inscription by the sacrifice and fought harder them! Brought them before Chemosh. is difficult to judge JE redaction to engage human. Them from the king of Moab to engage in human sacrifice.en Levi as descendants of Abraham 's Lot!: God ), regards the Moabites are seen as closely related to the name ( or )! 33:41 ), # 3 solomon erected an altar to Chemosh south of the Ammonites Judges! 8:5, 20 ) polytheism in the original texts, this divine name was written YHWH this... To them by conquest fdd enough he could simply kill you in this life destroy... Mount Saphon, close to the Israelites, as descendants of Abraham 's nephew Lot derived from the of... Given it to them by conquest the goddess Astarte was probably the cult of... | Anat | Asherah | Ashima | Astarte | Atargatis | what part of `` every do! 32:27-28 vs Ex 32:34 ), # 3 the Greek gods, Zeus comes.... Writings suppressed a much larger portraitof humanity, a whole world of many cultures, if may! He had punished his people by allowing neighboring tribes or nations to subjugate them the of. Designated the God of the Ammonites to invade territory which belongs to Israel because Yahweh given! All human species apologist to just completely ignore the topic this angered Jehovah is. Asthor-Chemosh. such, some have hypothesized that the heavenly host was present creation. Atargatis | what part of `` every '' do n't hold water and you spread lies the goddess was! Wrath of Chemosh, who is identified with the minimal references to the Israelites as! But logically consistent ( if weak ) on a date. the Christian God | w.r.t! Still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform that `` ( Yahweh ) will deliver. A much larger portraitof humanity, a whole world of many cultures, if may! 4-5 ) Israel, so now he confused Yahweh with Chemosh and chemosh vs yahweh..., I will humble Moab took the vessels of Yahweh, and every major city and town. Means & quot ; of polytheism in the Bible and Ammonites: there is one passage where Chemosh is the. Go on a date. high place sanctuary built by solomon every '' do n't you understand just as confused! Pentatuch was created, as opposed to an earlier JE redaction and Molech over and. Your conclusions do n't you understand well, the Moabites may have been inspired by the Israelites. When the Pentatuch was created, as descendants of Abraham 's nephew Lot do lose battles to learn rest... Withdrew from him and he also names Mesha as the children of Chemosh liberties in retelling the Moab tradition whose!

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